ROCKWELL:
Good morning. This is the Lew Rockwell Show. And what an honor it
is to have as our guest, Dr.
Ron Paul. What do we say about Dr. Paul? Because I could take
up the entire podcast just describing — (laughing) — his qualifications and his
achievements and not even begin to go over them. I’ll just simply say
he’s the great leader for liberty and for free markets, Austrian economics, who
has influenced millions of people all over the world, young people especially.
So, Ron, it’s great to have you with
us. And I thought we’d get started by talking about your wonderful last
column where you discussed the Neo-Cons, the people who seem to want perpetual
war, the role of Bill Kristol and similar intellectuals in promoting the
warfare state and the empire.
PAUL:
Yeah, Kristol had written this recent article and he was lamenting the fact
that the problem with Americans is they get war weary. Yeah, after 10
years or more –
(LAUGHTER)
– and many, many deaths and hundreds of
thousands of people suffering and an epidemic of suicides. Yeah, and
people getting sick and tired of it, and he’s crying about it. But he
goes in and tries to expand on this that we didn’t even end World War II
right. You know, we didn’t fight Vietnam long enough; 60,000 lives lost
weren’t enough. So he goes on and on. But, hopefully, he’ll lose
credibility. Unfortunately, the Neo-Cons have a lot to say about the war
propaganda that gets out and converts the people into a pro-war stance.
But maybe he’s over the top this time. But I’m not holding my breath
because, so often, the American people start off being quite opposed to a war.
I mean, just look at the Iraqi War. You know, 60% to 70% of the people
were opposed to it and then the war propagandists, the Neo-Cons came in and
changed that. Even before World War II, most Americans were opposed to us
getting involved until things were orchestrated in a certain way that the
people more or less had to join in.
But, no, I think the Neo-Con should lose
credibility, which means that he doesn’t want us to ever leave Iraq, ever leave
Afghanistan. He wants us to continue to build up in Syria. And he’s
the kind of guy that’s anxious for us to march on to Iran. And it’s
scary. I wish the people would wake up.
But I’m sort of subtly optimistic that this
will have to end, in a sad sort of way, in one sense, in that this country will
be bankrupt and will have to quit. More of less, how the Soviets had to
give up their empire. So maybe some good can come out of a bit of a
financial crisis that will come. And we have to admit that this financial
crisis has been perpetuated and accentuated by the fact that we spend all this
money on the military and on all these useless wars.
ROCKWELL:
You know, it’s interesting, the Kristols of earlier times, of course, used to
complain about war weariness, too. But it began much earlier, before the
Federal Reserve, because people were simply being taxed. So they got sick
and tired of the high taxes for wars as well as all the other reasons that, of
course, they should have been against the wars. So it’s very difficult
for governments to
maintain these long-term wars.
With the coming of the Fed, they can just print up the money for the defense
budget. There’s not even — I mean, I remember when they were going to war
against Iraq or whatever, except for you, nobody was raising the question of
costs. I mean, how much was this thing going to cost in addition to the
moral and other issues having to do with war? Because, you know, they
just phoned Greenspan and he turned on the printing presses.
PAUL:
That’s what’s so sinister about, you know, the Federal Reserve accommodating
the warmongers is that the payment is delayed. There’s no doubt it’s a
benefit to those who want to perpetuate and promote big government, whether
it’s for welfare or the warfare. A direct tax to make people pay for
these wars would bring it to a halt a lot sooner. But it’s very
convenient to put it off. Then nobody knows exactly who the victims
are. Even the victims don’t realize it, you know, that their cost of
living is going up. And then they’re convinced, oh, it’s those rich
people, it’s the oil people; they’re gouging us, everybody is gouging us with
high prices. It’s never the government’s fault, nor is it the fault of
the mentality that supports these endless wars and endless spending and the
printing of money. So they’re interconnected.
And you know me well enough to know that,
when I first started, I talked a lot more about — you know, economics motivated
me, you know, during the ’70s and the Bretton Woods and that sort of
thing. But as years went on, I became more and more convinced of the
interrelationship with financing these wars, how it’s related to the financial
system, not only because of taxes and every penny you spend on militarism comes
out of the peoples’ hide here at home, it hurts the economy. At the same
time, the ability to do this and hide the cost I think is what’s been so
detrimental to this country. But it’s all interconnected.
And that’s why I think the philosophy of
liberty and the things that we have talked about brings us all together.
Whether it’s personal liberty on how people should run their lives or allowing
other countries to solve their own problems, it all comes together once an
individual understands what the concept of personal liberty is all about.
ROCKWELL:
And, Ron, don’t you think — or at least it’s certainly my impression that the
young people that you’ve attracted to these ideas don’t like the wars. I
mean, they don’t like the Fed and they don’t like other things, too. They
don’t like the wars. And maybe they’re realizing as you’re explaining it
to them that, in addition to everything else wrong, they’re being ripped off.
PAUL:
I think that is the case. But, you know, at times, I get praised
for doing such and such with young people and all, but one thing that I hope
I’ve contributed to and that is get conservatives and limited-government
people, Libertarians and people who like the military and supporters of America
in general — have been taught that we should not feel guilty about not being
pro war. And I think this is what the propaganda has
achieved. You know, how many times have they accused me of being
un-American and unpatriotic and I don’t support the troops and this sort of
thing? But there’s no reason in the world why we can’t feel good about
taking this position. And the young people seem to be very receptive to
that. Their instincts, like the instincts I think of most people
initially, is against the war. Then they’re told, well, if you’re not for
the war, you’re not a good person. And I think if they hear the truth, then
they might feel more comfortable.
Sort of like when I discovered Austrian
economics. You know, when I naturally thought free markets were good, I
kept hearing the story, well, no, that’s not good; you have to have a fair
society; you have to have a little redistribution and all that. So I was
delighted when I came across Mises and Hayek and Rothbard because they were
able to explain this to me, that there’s nothing to feel guilty about if you
believe in freedom. And they say, oh, no, you’re just a selfish person
and you just want to — you know, you don’t care about other people, this sort
of thing. But I finally came around to the point where if you do have an
instinct to care about other people, you ought to care about freedom because
that will help the maximum number of people, and the best chance for us to
achieve peace and prosperity.
ROCKWELL:
Ron, do you think that the whole drone warfare business — I guess Obama’s and
the Pentagon’s plans to have eventually thousands of drone bases all around the
world. Is this the way that they’re attempting to counter the fact that
Americans don’t like all the American causalities? Unfortunately, they
tend to care nothing about the foreign casualties.
PAUL:
Yeah.
ROCKWELL:
But they don’t like the American casualties. And this is a way to — you
know, some guy in a basement in Virginia is
sending in the drone in Pakistan, he’s not going to get hurt.
PAUL:
No, I think what they’re trying to have is a neat little system that promotes
the empire without getting their hands dirty. But, you know, it’s not
going to work because we’re in a different system. We’re not fighting
World War II. We’re in a fourth-generational warfare time where wars are
fought differently. And they’re fought differently because it’s not going
to be against government against government. So what could warrant,
incite a people to rebel against certain individuals than being hit with a
drone by somebody who, in many ways, in their eyes, they don’t even have the
guts to look at us in the face and — they do it in secret from thousands of
miles away. And when the individuals are killed, when there’s the
collateral killings and families are killed, how many tens of thousands if not
millions of people are affected like that? You know, the torture goes
on. The pictures have been there. And this just, you know, builds
up the enemy. So the sterile wars with the drones will not solve the
problems of the Neo-Cons who want this world occupation. In many ways,
it’s just going to bury the issue in the sense that it’s going to be more
terrorism and more attacks in this way. But the world will certainly be
less peopled.
And I also predict that all these
individuals who run the drones, they will not be — they will not be able to
avoid some of the backlash on them. Like, we have now a suicide epidemic
because of people going over and doing wars, that they realize they were
killing kids and doing a lot of other things they shouldn’t be doing.
Well, I think the operators of the drones will suffer in a similar way. I
don’t know if there’s any statistics that bear that out yet, but I think
eventually, if they’re a human being and they know, well, I did shoot that
missile and it killed 10 extra people, you know, it can’t help but eventually
bother these people. And they bury these thoughts into their mind.
They’re told it’s OK. They’ve been conditioned that war is wonderful and
good. But deep down inside, there’s a conflict. And I think that’s
why people are struggling and they’re suicidal.
ROCKWELL:
Ron, in support of your position, there was a recent item that the drone
command, or whatever it’s called within the Pentagon, was assigning chaplains
specifically to counsel the drone killers and, of course, to convince them that
everything they were doing was perfectly OK. So obviously, they are
having — as you say, if they have consciences, if they’re human beings, they
can’t feel good about this, unless you’re, of course, a serial killer and a
monster.
PAUL:
You know, they say about 5% — and I don’t know if this is true. They say
about 5% of the people who go into the military are psychopathic, you know, to
begin with because, you know, they just like guns and shooting, and it’s
excitement and all this. Most people go in for different reasons.
But if they withstand — if they are exposed to battle and these kinds of
conditions of killing, after a while, some theorize that they all become, in a
way, psychopathic or, you know, it’s very difficult to handle their
emotions. But I think it’s much more difficult when you’re trying to
adjust to an aggressive war, when we’re the aggressors and not the
defenders. I think it would be a lot easier to adapt to some of the
horrors of World War II because of Pearl Harbor and this sort of thing; and
they adjusted better. But I think people are starting to realize we don’t
have a noble cause over there. You know, it’s just not noble to send our
young people 6,000 miles away. And quite frankly, I’m convinced some of
these young people who didn’t get very far in school and for economic reasons
they resort to going into the military — and they probably don’t even know
their geography that well, and I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them end up
in some of these countries they’ve probably never heard of or exactly knew what
was going on. And they’re sent over to kill these people. And then
we wonder why there’s a down side to this.
ROCKWELL:
Ron, speaking of down sides, tell us what you think the effects of the whole
Cyprus situation is going to be from the standpoint of the banking industry in
Europe and, for that matter — and, of course, governments, and governments and
banking systems in this country, too?
PAUL:
Well, you know, in a way, it’s hard to take it and say that’s exactly what’s
going to happen to us, but something similar to that will happen. How it
evolves, we don’t know. But in Cyprus, they didn’t do what they did in
Iceland. Iceland allowed a lot of bankruptcies to occur and, evidently, they’re
back on their feet again. So they liquidated debt, which is what should
be the goal of the correction. In Cyprus, you know, there’s a lot of
bailouts. They’re not allowing the real liquidation so it looks like some
of the big guys are going to get bailed out. And the bondholders of the
Greek bonds and different things like this, they’ll get the bailout. But
there was still some liquidation of debt and confiscation of wealth. But
my prediction will be, when you’ve worked all that out, it will be unfair.
It’ll be that — just like our bailouts occurred. There was some
liquidation of our debt in ’08 and ’09. Some people did lose some money.
And it usually was, you know, people that might have had a mortgage and
lost their job and they got the bad part of the deal. And yet, the
wealthy were bailed out.
So I think this is going to continue.
I think the pyramid of debt is still huge. And there’s no stomach for
allowing the liquidation of debt to occur. Politically, it just won’t be
acceptable. It’s always going to be more acceptable to keep the printing
presses running. And as long as the world takes our dollars, we’re going
to keep printing them until the trust is lost. And when that day arrives
— nobody knows exactly when. But I see no foundation to our system.
And each day, like what went on in Iraq, that steadily undermines
confidence. And one day, that’s going to happen worldwide with the
dollar, and that’s going to be really bad news for a lot of us.
ROCKWELL:
Well, I thought it was interesting when that European official announced that
there would be similar haircuts, as they put it, for big depositors in Italy
and Spain. And then, of course, they’re shocked to find out that people
are taking their money out of the banks. And then he’s backtracking, oh,
no, no, no, he didn’t really mean it. But probably not smart to keep huge
amounts of money in a bank account whether you’re an American or a Spaniard or
an Italian or anything else.
PAUL:
Yeah, but weren’t there some reports also in Cyprus that a few of the big
depositors were tipped off — (laughing) — you know –
ROCKWELL:
Yeah, that’s right.
PAUL:
— a little bit early?
ROCKWELL:
That’s right.
PAUL:
And they got their money out. That always seems to happen.
But it’s a very, very fragile system.
And anybody who understands Austrian economics understands that permanent
prosperity cannot be achieved by inflating a currency and pyramiding
debt. And that once it happens and it quits functioning and producing
anything, then you have to clear the market of that. And you have to get
rid of this bad debt so you can start building again. And that
has not been permitted. I guess the last time that truly has happened on
any significant downturn was probably in 1921 here in this country where we
allowed the liquidation to occur. And it wasn’t a prolonged
depression. It’s only been since the Keynesian-type mentality has taken
over that has prolonged these depressions and recessions so long. It’s
been going on in Japan. And they still, right now, believe, well, if we
just print more money, you know, it’s going to happen. But if that were
the case, we wouldn’t have to really work for a living. You know, we
could just print dollars and –
(LAUGHTER)
– and export dollars. So right now,
that’s our best export.
ROCKWELL:
Well, Ron Paul, thanks so much for coming on the show today and sharing your
wisdom. And great to hear from you.
PAUL:
Great to talk to you, Lew.
ROCKWELL:
Bye-bye.
PAUL:
Bye.